The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is a great company that does so much good. What many people do not know is that ASPCA also offers pet insurance products (ASPCA Pet Insurance) that you can take advantage of. Before I go into more details about their insurance offerings I would like to say that one of the reasons I would consider this insurance company is simple because of the brand and the cause that this company is fighting for. Cruelty to animals should not exist and therefore I find their cause very noble.
ASPCA Pet Insurance
Now as far as their pet insurance they have created a website especially for this and it can be found at www.aspcapetinsurance.com. The first thing that you will find when you enter their site is that they provide you with two instant options. First option is to get a free pet insurance quote in an easy and quick way. All you’ll have to do is provide them with 4 simple answers.
Well, it is not exactly 4 answers but merely 4 categories of questions that you will need to answer. But they are still provided in a way that is easy to understand.
Pet Insurance Application
If you feel that this is too difficult you still have the option to call their support staff at 1-866-861-9092. They’ll ask you the same questions and fill out an application for you.
When you have more than one pet you need insurance coverage for they give you an additional 10% discount. Many insurance companies will give you discounts if you add more than one pet but that ASPCA Pet Insurance does it as well is still a plus.
The Insurance Coverage Plan for You
Now the second option that you are confronted with on the front page is a guide to find the right insurance coverage plan for you. They offer increasing levels of coverage and the prices will naturally increase as well. By taking this guide you will be able to find out what coverage you can get for the amount that you are willing to spend on your pet insurance. This varies from person to person and some pets are far more expensive to insure than others.
As I said earlier there are many other companies that offer this kind of service and one of the best features that ASPCA has is their main company’s mission to avoid cruelty to animals. An ASPCA Pet Insurance might not be the right solution for you but I think that you should at least give them a few minutes to see what they have to offer.
Update:
When it did this brief ASPCA pet insurance review is was not aware of all the time where ASPCA had treated customers poorly. After the overwhelming amount of comments (see below), it seems like there are a lot of people that have been far from satisfied with their service. Many have really great points and cases and I hope that everyone reading this article will spend some time reading trough all the comments. Now I will still say that no matter if you have an ASPCA pet health insurance or any other insurance with other companies there will always be customers that are not satisfied.
Very often the problem has two sides. One is that the company is obviously created as a business and businesses need to make a profit to exist. If they don’t they will have to close down. What this means is that the customer will pay more in fees (on average) than he/she will receive from the company. That part is pure logic.
The other side of the problem is that most people don’t know how to and/or will not spend the time to read through insurance policies. They’ll just sign the agreement and hope that they’ll never have troubles. That isn’t the smart way to do it but it is definitely the most common way. ASPCA pets are insured according to some legal stuff like with any other insurance company. My best advice is that you should start by reading the agreement before you sign and to highlight anything that you do not understand. Then call the customer service department (and record the conversation) and ask about everything that you do not understand. They will answer your questions for free because you’re a potential customer.
When you search online you will find some ASPCA pet insurance reviews that are biased. This is most likely either because they make money from selling the insurance or because the sites may be owned by the company itself.
But when all this is said I still believe that there are some positive things to say about the company. I am especially positive about the ASPCA pet adoption possibility. I believe that every animal should have the right to a loving and caring owner and a service/solution like this is right up my alley.
If you have positive or negative experiences with ASPCA please write a comment about it below.
I was asking my vet about insurance. They told me that the best thing they can advise is to open a savings account and be regular with a set deposit amount each month (what you would pay for a premium or more if you can). Don’t ever use it for any thing else and if you have a catastrophic illness or injury the money will be there and you won’t have to argue with anyone about pre-existing conditions or anything else. I think that is what I’m going to do.
Cyndi,
This is great advice for someone not planning any problems for the first several years. Unfortunately problems can occur early on and so one cannot plan for their pets this way –unless, of course one can afford to invest at least $3,500. the first year and then build from there.
So I disagree with your vet, but only to some extent. I do think that saving the money oneself would be the best way to go, not for pre-existing problems, but because pet insurance—unlike people insurance— can drop someone the minute the pet becomes a bad risk (more like one’s car insurance). Although Pet Plan USA guaranteed me they wouldn’t drop my dog under any condition, I don’t trust that there isn’t a loop-hole somewhere, because pet insurance doesn’t REQUIRE they continue to insure a pet once it becomes high-risk. So for this reason alone, a savings plan of one’s own would be ideal. But in reality, even such a lousy insurance company as ASPCA Pet Health saved me money OVER my premiums that first year. It is true that I had to fight for almost every cent of it, but it was well worth it. My dog’s surgeries, meds, and physical therapy cost well over $6,000. that first year, and my dog was only 3yrs old. Had I saved my premiums since she was born I would never have saved nearly enough to cover those expenses—not even the 80% of them that the insurance company EVENTUALLY paid me.
An exception would be those who have numerous pets. Obviously not all will become ill or injured at once, yet premiums on multiple pets are quite high. If you’re paying $100/mo. on pet insurance it wouldn’t take too long to invest a couple of thousand for an emergency. And if you’ve not quite banked that much and you did have a problem, your credit card would likely require not much over the $100/monthly for the difference. But it would have taken me over ten years to save up, in premiums, what the insurance company eventually paid me for my dog’s injury. So I really believe insurance is the way to go with a pet—but the RIGHT pet insurance. A person should not have to go through what I went through just to get them to pay on a claim. I’ll admit, I did not do my homework. I had merely assumed that if the ASPCA endorsed them they must be reliable—I’ve learned my lesson and hopefully this website will inform others not to be so gullible.
Victoria
I agree with Victoria. In the past year our 2 year old Lab has suffered a shoulder injury ($1000) a TPLO to her left hind knee ($3700), and yesterday underwent a second TPLO ($3700) to her right hind knee. I never would have been able to save this money. PetPlan USA was the best investment I could have made. It will be at least 10 years before they break even on my dog, assuming an annual premium of $450 a year.
Frank,
Sorry to hear of your lab’s –and YOUR–bad luck! If you’d had ASPCA you would have greatly exceeded your annual incident limit, even IF they’d been willing to pay!
How was Pet Plan at paying on all of these? When i first signed up with them they told me that they cover 80% of one’s normal vet bills, but only 70% of specialty care vet bills (such as TPLO surgeries). They also told me they were likely going to bring those up to 80% coverage, too, by the end of this year–have they yet?
I’ve not yet filed a claim with Pet Plan. I’m hoping i’ve finally found a good pet insurance company.
Victoria,
The first incident (shoulder injury) was prior to getting coverage and was the one that cased me to get insurance. PetUA promptly paid 80% of the first TPLO… no hassle, no looking for a loophole so they wouldn’t have to pay. The second TPLO was last Monday and I haven’t submitted a claim yet. My yearly max is $8000 according to the policy I purchased, so I am expecting the same 80% coverage on the second TPLO. I am very happy with PetPlan. Good luck.
Frank,
Please keep me posted on the second TPL0. ASPCA considered an ACL/CCL tear to be a “bi-lateral” condition thus making the other knee a pre-existing condition the next policy period. PetPlanUSA told me they would cover the 2nd knee after one year from the surgery of the first knee (because about 30% of dogs with ccl surgery end up tearing the other knee within one year since they baby that injured knee). I still worry about my dog, even though she’s bypassed that one year period, simply because she’s still pampering that knee. Because of my fight with ASPCA, she had to go through an inferior procedure first. She didn’t get the TPLO until 6months after tearing her CCL! So I’m still crossing my fingers this doesn’t happen again. It isn’t just the expense. As you well know, recovery from a TPLO takes 8-12 weeks of babying your pet BIG TIME! I live in the country and so generally don’t walk my dog. She has 5 acres within invisible fencing so i just open my door and let her out. Having to walk her 8-12 weeks of Wisconsin winter can be hell…brrrrr…I’d rather not have to go through it all again. Not to mention the ache from hearing her whimpering from the pain of the surgery and having to make her wait for her next pain pill. (AND ASPCA MADE HER GO THROUGH 2 PROCEDURES!)
No, i feel for you Frank and wish you the best.
Victoria
Hi everyone,
I found a brochure in my vet’s office during my last visit. It may help out those who either choose not to get insurance or have found their insurance is not covering what they should be covering. It’s called Care Credit (http://www.carecredit.com/). I can’t tell if it is as great as it looks or not. Depending upon certain particulars, it may not charge any interest for up to 18mos. (from what I can tell), but then the minute you’re delinquent once—like a loan shark practically break your knee caps—they can destroy you by charging up to 29.99% interest! Still, if one needs the money and knows they won’t miss a payment…it appears to be interest-free for quite awhile. Read all the fine print first, though, cuz I’ve not yet.
Victoria
Renewal time for me with ASPCA in two months. So, even though I had realized that this was a plan that had so many exceptions and that I had not even enjoyed even the minimum recoup of costs. My tallying up totally surprised me. I have three dogs on advantage. Mostly healthy. I’ve spent $2,263 on premiums and $2,264 in vet costs claimed. I’ve received back from ASPCA a total of $471 !!!!! I’m going to have an investigation of my account and further review – I can’t think of anything we have done to have a claims denied to this extent. I had other problems to focus on this year, but now I am tuned in and ready to become their most annoying client.
Victoria… I think I’ll pass on CareCredit. I’ve grown rather fond of my kneecaps over the years! LOL
Trupanion….
For those of you who might be considering Trupanion insurance for your pet, they have enhanced their customer web interface. When I originally took out the policy on our two cats, everything had to be done by calling the customer service number. That wasn’t all that bad because customer service there is very friendly and helpful, but I do prefer doing updates to my account online.
Trupanion now offers this convenience. You can update pretty much all aspects of your account including pet medical history and payment method.
You can also download a sample policy before you buy so you can compare it to the other companies.
If you want to know which pet insurance policy is straight forward with no fine print or onerous requirements on the pet owner, I’d recommend comparing the Trupanion policy with any other pet insurance policy out there.
I think you’ll come to your own conclusion pretty quickly. There is one honest company and then there are the others.
Today I received postal mail from ASPCA pet insurance. My husband asked if maybe we should check into switching since we’d been noticing that our current provider (VPI) had been getting increasingly more expensive.
After checking around online, and seeing some of the stories, I think we will be staying with VPI.
They’ve had our business now through the lives of two of our previous cats and the one we currently still have.
The first one was diagnosed with diabetes. Our first hint of it was when we woke up one morning and he was lying on the floor next to our bed unable to stand up. One week in the animal hospital adds up to a pretty good sized bill. By the time they got done carving up what they were willing to pay, I think I remember it being about 75% of the bill. Which wasn’t too bad. He had diabetes for about 1 1/2 years and died at the age of 14. Throughout, he was insured through VPI. They never once told me they were thinking about canceling the plan.
The second one passed away last year in November. Prior to her passing, the tests that were done added up to around $1900. Total paid by VPI was $1400.
There are some things that I wish VPI did better, but I certainly can’t fault a business for making money. And I always do have the option of opening up a savings account and tossing the money into that each month for an ‘animal welfare fund’ on my own. With VPI though… at least I don’t have to worry about them saying that renewing my plan each time causes a “pre-existing” condition. That sounds a bit shady to me.
The shame is, I have such good admiration for the ASPCA that it is hard for me to believe that they would endorse insurance for animals that will leave owners holding extremely large bills for that they’re not expecting. If you have an insured animal one day, how can you reasonably expect that the next day it all of a sudden has a pre-existing condition under the same continuing insurance plan? The plan definately needs to be re-written.
I agree with you whole-heartedly regarding your thought that the ASPCA would NEVER endorse an insurance company that would CAUSE the cruel treatment of animals. At least that’s what I used to think, too. In fact, that is why I had switched from VPI to ASPCA about 1-1/2 yrs ago. My dog had been with VPI since I brought her home at 8weeks, and then I received a brochure in the mail from the ASPCA promoting their insurance. I had, in the past, donated to the ASPCA. I thought they were the good guys, so why wouldn’t they endorse one of the better insurance plans, right? Wrong! We were all duped by them. Even AFTER taking them to court and winning, I would have been MUCH better off with your 75% coverage from VPI. My dog went through so much because ASPCA Pet Health were such …creeps! (can’t use the word I’d like to use here) My dog is still limping and I will be setting up yet another appt. for yet another x-ray–these were likely caused because it took ASPCA 6 months to approve her surgery– and they will not be covered because ASPCA then dropped us for costing them too much. So now her knee is considered pre-existing, of course, by all other companies. Even had I been able to stay with ASPCA, I found out that it would have been considered the same even by them.
No, after several letters and phone calls to the Pres. And CEO of the ASPCA, I no longer believe they were also duped by this insurance company. They have been told of this website and all of the problems we’ve experienced with the insurance company they’ve endorsed, and still they have not pulled their endorsement. I guess they like the financial kick-back too much to worry about the pets who have been harmed. Pets who live in loving homes and have owners who care enough to buy insurance for them don’t make for good television on their animal cop shows, either, I guess.
Don’t donate to the ASPCA any longer—give to the Humane Societies.
CareCredit: I have used them before and this IS how it works or at least worked (since it has thankfully been 2 years since I needed to use it). I signed up at the vet and was approved with in minutes. I DID have free financing for several months based on my charges. I paid it off by the end of the the free period so no finance charges where paid.
Things to know: 1) different dollars amount qualify for different time periods to repay finance free. Ask at the vet, they should have the latest “offers” or schedule. 2) IF you do not completely pay off your balance by the end of the free period they will RETROACTIVE all the finance charges. 3) only certain vets participate w/Care Credit. YOu don’t need a referral or pick a provider like human insurance. Know ahead of time who particiaptes so you don’t find yourself in an emergency only to be told the vet does not take care credit.
If you have pet insurance I would think you could still use this as you have to pay the vet first. So now you can by yourself some time while waiting for your claim to be paid.
If you DO NOT think you will be able to pay the care credit balance before the fees are tacted on, I believe you would be better off charging it to your credit card OR use one of the balance transfer checks for a low apr. Some co’s don’t like those checks so your credit card company many let you make it out to yourself/deposit it straight into your checking account.
Thanks for the info, Sirena. It’s nice to know that Care Credit will, at least, give one a period of time where he/she will be interest-free. But i agree that if one cannot pay it by that cut-off period Care Credit’s APR (22.98%-29.98%) is MUCH higher than that of most credit card companies.
I happen to agree that the ASPCA pet Insurance is very poor. I recently purchased for my dog, she was running, began limping and they call it pre-existing. I will now switch to Pets’ Best….I understand that ASPCA farms this out to another company.
Please go on their web site and let them know you are unhappy!!
Sheri….
I used to be on the ASPCA mailing list and I made donations to them in the PAST (but No More!).
After I discovered their scam Pet Insurance plan, I patiently waited for their next mailing. I then printed copies of several of the very sad experiences people had with the ASPCA plan that exposed them as a FRAUD.
I sent these copies back to ASPCA in their POSTAGE PAID ENVELOPE and demanded they forever remove me from their mailing list.
It worked like a charm!
I am FREE from the ASPCA donation solicitations. There are many other legitimate animal welfare groups that are deserving of my charity.
ASPCA has lost the right to receive donations from me now that they’ve decided to resort to fraudulent tactics to sell pet insurance.
Good Riddance ASPCA!!!
Sheri,
The ASPCA doesn’t own ASPCA Pet Health insurance. They merely endorse the company and in so doing have lent their name to the insurance company, thus misdirecting many of us to a very bad pet insurance company–one that actually CAUSES cruelty to animals.
Still, many of us have complained to the Pres. & CEO of ASPCA asking that they withdraw their endorsement and they refuse to do anything.
No, ASPCA Pet Health is OWNED by the Hartville Group. I looked them up online and found this:
“Hartville Group, Inc. (Hartville Group) is a holding company whose wholly owned subsidiaries include Hartville Re Ltd. (Hartville) and Petsmarketing Insurance.com Agency, Inc. (the Agency). Hartville is a reinsurance company ["Reinsurance" is the contract made between an insurance company and a third party to protect the insurance company from losses. The contract provides for the third party to pay for the loss sustained by the insurance company when the company makes a payment on the original contract] that is registered in the Cayman Islands, British West Indies. Hartville was formed to reinsure [re•in•sure
To insure again, especially by transferring all or part of the risk in a contract to a new contract with another insurance company.] pet health insurance that is being marketed by the Agency. The Agency is primarily a marketing/administration company concentrating on the sale of its proprietary health insurance plans for domestic pets. Its business plan calls for introducing its product effectively and efficiently through a variety of distribution systems. The Company accepts applications, underwrites and issues policies. Visit http://www.hartvillegroup.com for more information.”
[quoted from: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hartville+Group,+Inc.,+Launches+'ASPCA+Pet+Health+Insurance'-a0154153025]
And this was another:
“Hartville Group, Inc., through its subsidiaries, engages in pet insurance business in the United States. The company sells and administers pet insurance, a niche insurance product designed to help cover the veterinary expenses of dogs and cats. It also reinsures pet health insurance. The company’s products are sold under the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance, Petshealth Care Plan, and Hartville Pet Health Insurance brand names. Hartville Group is based in Canton, Ohio.”
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ric=HVLL.PK
Run, don’t walk, away from anything to do with ASPCA Pet Insurance. They tell you over the phone what the plan offers and when it comes down to actually covering a claim, they come up with all kinds of reasons for denying claims. I was told initially that the only things not covered were genetic disorders, preexisting conditions and well care. My dog got a torn ACL and needed surgery (which costs $2810.00 not including x-rays). I was told when I signed up that all the diagnostic things would be covered for injuries, surgery and medication. Guess what!! ACL surgery and diagnostic things are not covered when they take place within the 12 month period after signing the plan (which only covers a 12 month period!!) If you sign again, then you are not covered either since that would be a preexisting condition. You can’t win this one. If you choose to cancel your membership, they will take off plenty of what it cost you and will deny you if you have filed one claim. The ASPCA Insurance Plan is worthless and I consider their phone analysis of what is covered absolutely false. They say one thing and when they get your money, the plan says another. This is a scheme to steal from the people land also a very dishonest organization. I would never recommend it to anyone. Look at all the customers who have been disappointed and lied to. Do not trust them; they are untrustworthy.
Kathy,
Ask them for a copy of your recorded conversation when you signed up with the plan. If there is no mention of a 12month exclusion for ACL injuries (by the way, ASPCA keeps refering to it as an ACL injury, but dogs don’t even have ACLs. It is a CCL injury so technically they should mention that they have a 12month exclusion on CCL injuries!) If they have NOT mentioned it you have a case against them. File a complaint with your state’s Office of Commissioner of Insurance first. This may get their underwriters to pay up. If not, take them to Small Claims court.
The same thing happened to me. They refused to pay for the same reason and so I put my dog through an inferior procedure since it was all that I could afford (the TPLO required $3,500. up front), even though my regular vet recommended the TPLO since I have a jumbo-breed dog. That first surgery did not hold and so my dog went through another procedure to remove the monofilament line, which had snapped. Finally after all of my complaints from my OCI, ASPCA agreed to pay for anything ACL-related for the remainder of my policy period (by then only a few months away). She had the TPLO—6 whole months after her injury, but by then I’d long past my incident limit, in addition she required vast amounts of physical therapy sessions due to her muscle atrophy in that leg…to get to the point…
Since you’ve probably not exceeded your incident limit, you may not need to take them to court to get paid—file a complaint with your OCI first. But if you do need to take them to court…I won the case and you can, too, if they never mentioned anything about it in that initial conversation—ask them for the tape. They have to keep it and they should send it to you. (They just emailed it to me as an attachment. I had to go through the work of transcribing it for court.)
DON’T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS. They think we won’t fight it, that they’ll make money because we’ll take it—don’t give in. Don’t let them win.
Thank you Victoria. I am calling in the morning to ask for the transcripts. What happened to me was that I applied over the phone and was denied due to the fact that they didn’t receive my dog’s medical transcripts. There was no mention in that initial conversation of the exclusion for CCL events. I applied again the following day for the same plan. (Plan 2). They are supposedly checking my phone conversation because in the first one I applied for, there is no mention of the exclusion. They are telling me that they may have informed me during the 2nd conversation, the day after I was initially denied. I am calling again in the morning and asking for the transcripts. No matter what, I am advising everyone not to even consider this group. They are crooked and not out to help pet owners at all; just out to line their pockets. My vet threw out all their pamphlets. He was disgusted after hearing too many stories about their policies and treatment of clients. I do so appreciate your response to me.
Kathy,
Remember that your first line of attack, if there was indeed no mention, is to contact your state’s Office of Comissioner of Insurance. They are there to help fight injustice if possible.
Good Luck!
Thank you for your advice. I was not sure exactly how to pursue this and I know that I am very disappointed in what has ended up being a very costy mistake for me. I talked with 3 people today about the ASPCA Pet Insurance and how I felt about them. If I can save one person from going through a bad experience, I am happy. I am hoping for a positive resolution to my experience but am not holding my breath. Thank you for sharing with me. You have been very helpful.
I spent about $1,700 on my two cats’ Level 4 coverage for dental check-up, extractions, medications, and cleaning. What I got in the form of reimbursement is $120.00 for each cat. What a rip-off! I donated monthly, too. Well, I hope my cats don’t get ill anytime soon, because we are sooo canceling the fraudulent ASPCA insurance. I will never recommend them to anyone!
I thought I was covered, my dog had an emergency. I called the insurance company from the vet,explained the procedure and they verified (or at least agreed) it was in fact an “emergency”….then denied my $941.00 dollar claim.
Here’s a tip: If your dog is limping over a period of a couple of weeks, is not improving, and is checked up by a vet via manipulations and finally x-ray…. the return on the claim for the visit and x-rays is not covered is because it is hereditary (elbow dysplasia) My argument is that for diagnosis purposes – how would one know it is dysplasia without further investigations…. I understand that this diagnosis is not covered for any “treatment” but, for a diagnosis? This is where fraud starts. Rubbish company. Final straw – it is comical how much comes back from them, in terms of the customary fees – where are these vets whose fees are being compared to! I’ve cancelled them all and won’t be taking out any animal insurance again.
Claire,
Different breeds have different hereditary complaints. That’s why pet insurance companies ask you for the breed of your dog when you sign up. Were you told that elbow dysplasia would be excluded due to your dog’s breed? If they did…then yes, the diagnosis of that condition would be included in the exclusion. If not, you may wish to fight this exclusion.
I would not lump all pet insurance companies in with this one, though, and I would never want to be without pet insurance. As it is, i worry constantly about my dog’s one leg that is no longer covered by anyone due to ASPCA’s crappy insurance coverage.
Victoria
Victoria
Thank you Claire for your insight. I am arguing the claim on the fact that she injured herself while running. Regardless of whether there is an underlying problem, the symptoms happened from running. We found out that she is slightly arthritic, but we all have this problem with age. The policies clearly state that they will over injuries, and it is a fine line as to whether a dog injured a joint or it is hereditary. I am not going to give up . They play a waiting game, giving themselves 30 days. Everyone should file a complaint with their state insurance board!!!
Again, I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE ASPCA PET INSURANCE TO ANYONE! FIND A REPUTABLE COMPANY!!!!
Good for you, Sheri! In my first conversation with ASPCA Pet Health–when i signed up with them–I was told that my dog would be covered for injuries in about a week and then in 30 days would be covered for illness. Never once did she mention an ACL/CCL exclusion. So, when 4months passed and my dog injuried her knee, i expected my insurance company to cover it. When my vet recommended a TPLO procedure (which he does not do) for my giant-breed dog, I called ASPCA to make sure they covered that particular procedure…only to find they would not cover ANY procedure! I fought it–first complaining to the state’s insurance commission and then taking them to small claims. I did win, but my dog is still limping on that leg (see above for all she went through) and now that leg is pre-existing with my new insurance company (ASPCA dropped us after the injury, saying basically that we’re costing them too much…though it would have been pre-existing even had we been able to stay with ASPCA, which i wouldn’t have wanted to do anyway).
Bottom line: i still believe in pet insurance…just not THIS pet insurance!
I’ve started to review one pet insurance company (Embrace) who, has a policy to cover hereditary conditions – as long as the condition wasn’t present before the policy started. So, for me with dogs that have documented problems, it won’t be useful, but, if I’m with another puppy in the future – I’m going to file this and review it again.
Anyone with PetsBest?
I’m also going to look into whether or not any of the vet schools (orthopedics) have programs where interns are supervised with surgery (I know this happens with plastic surgeon interns) If the surgery itself isn’t too delicate or complicated – might be a way to manage the expense a bit …. ahh, the reality is, is that if surgery is the only option – I’ll only go to a highly recommended one and pay, pay, pay.
But my St. B, Boxer and Poodle are all worth it. Good luck all.
Duh, just saw the Embrace banner at the top of the page…
I have Pets Best for my cats and so far so good.